[00:00:13] Intro: Welcome to Brainforest Café with Dennis McKenna.

[00:00:21] Dennis McKenna: Una Meistere is a cultural journalist and curator, co-founder and Editor-in-Chief of the international platform Arterritory.com and Spiriterritory.com. Her interest in consciousness and psychedelics began in 2016 during an interview with artist Ernesto Neto, leading her to the Amazon rainforest, the Puyanawa tribe, and a formative dialogue with ethnopharmacologist Dennis McKenna.

Since then, Una has seen herself as a bridge builder between indigenous knowledge, contemporary culture and scientific research, expressing this perspective through in depth conversations with leading thinkers such as Wade Davis, Tim Ingold, Luis Eduardo Luna, Eduardo Neves and Rick Strassman.
In 2021, she co-founded the NGO Veselīga Latvija (Healthy Latvia), to address growing mental health and environmental challenges. With support from international experts, she co organized in Riga the region’s first conferences on psychedelic science, including a pioneering 2025 event at the University of Latvia, the first of its kind, which laid the groundwork for destigmatizing psychedelics and integrating Latvia into international research dialogue.
Una, welcome to the Brainforest Café.

[00:01:54] Una Meistere: Hello, Dennis. It’s great to meet you and it’s a huge honor for me to be a guest at the Brainforest Café.

[00:02:02] Dennis McKenna: Thank you. Well, it’s a pleasure to see you again and after reading your bio, I see you’ve been very busy.

So that’s great. You are one of the pioneers in Latvia on bringing psychedelics into respectability, you might say, and bridging that with indigenous traditional knowledge.

And as we talked about before in that memorable conversation we have, that fits very much with our agenda. That’s exactly what we’re trying to do, is bridge the gaps, bridge the connections between science and indigenous knowledge, and in a respectful way. So I’m just delighted that you can join us today.

[00:02:49] Una Meistere: Thank you.

[00:02:50] Dennis McKenna: Denis, what is on your mind? What have you been doing lately that you’d like to talk about?

[00:02:57] Una Meistere: Actually, I was quite busy. And before our conversation, I was thinking what I did since that time.

And looking back, my life was full of synchronicities. And I was born in very interesting time. It was still Soviet Union.

And at the age of 18-19, it collapsed. And it was like kind of Latvia and other Baltic states regained independence. And for us it was like a national awakening. Euphoria, songs and dances.

And after that short moment, we rushed into really harsh and wild capitalism.

And I remember that when the borders opened, we were like, thirsty. We traveled like crazy and I went as far as I could. I went to Laos, Cambodia, many times to India.

But one moment which was totally transforming for me was my travel to Bolivia and Peru.

It started on Lake Titicaca. I went to sun island and after crossing the mountains to Peru, and I was in Olaytantambo. And during the midnight we went to the temple of Condor, I’m sure you know it, and we decided to smoke marijuana there. And it was like the sky has opened in front of our eyes. And it was a bit scary moment. And after a few days we went to Machu Picchu early morning and had a cleansing ritual with condor’s wings.

And the guy who did it, he disappeared immediately after this ritual. And there were three rainbows unexpectedly appearing. And after we went further north to Chechapojes, which was civilization before Incas.

But interestingly enough, at that time I didn’t hear anything about ayahuasca. We were chewing coca leaves just to avoid altitude sickness, but nothing about ayahuasca. And as you mentioned, the turning point was my meeting with Brazilian artist Ernesto Neto. He had exhibition in Helsinki and he just came back from Amazonia and he told his story, how it changed his life, his life as an artist as well, and how he was followed by boa and starting to be the messenger of this huge snake and spreading the knowledge and raising awareness. And then I went back to my country and after few days, another synchronicity. My friend called me and said that Hunikuni tribe is arriving in Latvia and they are doing ceremonies, of course, top secret.

And I went there and there were three ceremonies in a row and everything was dark and the experience was really, really heavy. We were vomiting and purging a lot. And it was not a vomit, vomit, it was something like energetic, like a black frog, I don’t know. And after that I said myself that never again.

And then I went to a conference in Girona, where I met you as well.

And after, through my Spanish friends, they introduced me to Puyanawa tribe. And I went to Brazil, spent three weeks with my friends together with the tribe, and we participated in rituals and preparing ayahuasca. I was picking up chakruna leaves and crazy fire ants was biting me. But. But we took a small dose of ayahuasca and I saw that leaves are kind of talking to me. And then we returned and the pandemic has started.

And then I thought I should do something with this, there is a message. And then I wrote you regarding this interview. We both remember. I wrote also Wade Davis and had conversation and I was such, such kind of curious mind that I was reading everything I can read about teacher plants, about ayahuasca, about psychedelics, and. Yes. And I thought, what is the message? Where is it going to lead me?

And so at the end, I understood that maybe the message is that being a journalist, I should be a bridge maker, because situation at that time in Latvia and in Baltic states was very stigmatized, as you may imagine.

And step by step, we are trying to destigmatize it, and it’s a huge way ahead still.

[00:08:03] Dennis McKenna: Well, that’s quite a story. You’ve been many places and you’ve had lots of adventures.

So do I understand correctly that your first ayahuasca experience was in Brazil or in Peru, or actually in Latvia?

[00:08:20] Una Meistere: It was in Latvia. It was in private house in Latvia. It was together with Hunikoin and those guys.

[00:08:29] Dennis McKenna: After you returned from your travels to South America?

[00:08:33] Una Meistere: No, no, no, it was before.

[00:08:35] Dennis McKenna: Oh, it was before. Okay, okay.

[00:08:37] Una Meistere: It was after my meeting with Ernesto Oneeto. It was just after that.

[00:08:43] Dennis McKenna: I see.

[00:08:44] Una Meistere: It just came to me.

[00:08:46] Dennis McKenna: And then at his behest, were you motivated to go to South America?

The places you mentioned, Ollantaytambo and Lake Titicaca and all that, are familiar to me. I’ve only been to Titicaca once, but I been to Ollantaytambo many times, and the Sacred Valley is one of my favorite places, so.

And then in Brazil, did you visit.

You mentioned in your bio that you had interviewed with Luis Eduardo Luna. Did you visit him at Wasiwaska in Florianopolis?

[00:09:25] Una Meistere: Unfortunately not. It was a Zoom interview during pandemic time. I was in Brazil just before the pandemic, and when I came back and everything has happened on Zoom, this conversation also was over Zoom.

But I still remember it because we spoke a lot also about animism, about what he’s doing, and actually he spent many years in Helsinki.

[00:09:52] Dennis McKenna: So how long? Where did you meet Eduardo in Helsinki initially?

[00:09:57] Una Meistere: No, no, no. I met him over Zoom. He was in Brazil at that moment.

[00:10:02] Dennis McKenna: Okay. He was in Brazil at the conference you went to.

[00:10:07] Una Meistere: Yeah.

[00:10:08] Dennis McKenna: Okay. And then you mentioned Spain and you were in the Isirs conference. We saw each other in Girona.

[00:10:18] Una Meistere: Yeah, we saw each other in Girona. And I recently saw that you are going to participate next year as well.

[00:10:25] Dennis McKenna: I’m planning to, yes.

Are you coming?

[00:10:30] Una Meistere: Yes, I’m planning to come. And I think it will be great opportunity to meet you in person. And maybe you can make a small detour to Latvia. Before or after.

[00:10:41] Dennis McKenna: It’s possible.

I would like to, for me, These days travel is difficult, so just getting to Girona is a major commitment.

But I told them that I would come and I really can’t pass it up. I want to come, so I will see you there for sure.

So in the period that you.

Since we talked, you’ve been very busy, you’ve been very active.

I guess one obvious question is what is the status of ayahuasca in Latvia and psychedelics in general? And this is still very, very much underground and not accepted. Is that correct or are things changing?

[00:11:29] Una Meistere: The status of ayahuasca is on gray zone because DMT is illegal, but ayahuasca itself, it’s not scheduled as illegal.

But of course there is legal problems with ayahuasca. Psilocybin and other psychedelic substances, except ketamine are still illegal here, as in other European countries, except Czech Republic, where they will start to use psilocybin for therapy.

But here it’s still illegal. And actually our country was very, very stigmatized regarding psychedelics. And I was thinking a lot why it’s like that.

And one answer is the problem of alcohol, which we have already through generations.

And it’s interesting that in ancient times we were using beer and it was kind of mild alcohol.

But during 18th and 19th century, when nobility started to produce spirits and strong alcohol, they opened the first pubs and people were invited to buy alcohol and to use it. And as they use to use alcohol in ancient times for socializing and for rituals instead of beer, now they are using strong spirit.

Actually this tradition continued and it is closely connected also with climate situation here. As you know, in late autumn and also in and winter we have quite dark days.

And one of the ways how to cope with that is to use alcohol.

And it seems that people here know that it’s kind of demon, but they use to this demon and they know how to deal with it.

And when they care about cannabis or psychedelics, it’s another kind of demon. But everyone is suspicious because no one knows how to use it. And another point which came to me recently is our traditions in Baltic countries.

Actually when we are looking back, there is no evidence of use of consciousness expanding substances historically here in Baltics.

Because it’s quite interesting. We are coming from the branch of fino you grian people, but we are different branch from people who are from further north. For example Sami or Russian people, from where sham is more originated. We are Baltic people and we never been hunters and gatherers. We were more more oriented through farming and pottery and our relationship since ancient time with nature.

Was really harmonic and symbiotic. We talk with plants by observing them and saying and singing songs and saying prayers and had rituals, but we never tried to expand our consciousness.

It was totally different.

But in the meantime we had those plants around us. We had like ergot, and also we had Amanita muscarita and also 8 kind of psilocybin mushrooms growing there. But it’s interesting that Amarita muscaria we use only externally, not internally, for joint problems. It was not possible popular here.

And.

Yes, and at one moment I thought that maybe this also is at the core of big stigmatization, because it’s not part of our ancient tradition.

But at the moment when psychedelic renaissance started in the world, all of those teacher plants came illegally, of course, to our country, and many people started to use them, dealing with their mental issues and other issues.

At one moment happened kind of paradox, because now you feel that through those foreign teacher plants we are starting to go back to our own ancient roots, to our own plant medicines. And really, it’s a moment here at the moment, and it’s strange enough, but yeah, there is a feeling that ayahuasca came to our part of the world to return us to our traditions.

[00:16:36] Dennis McKenna: Right.

Well, I think that’s very interesting. I think that you’re headed in the right direction in a certain way. I’ve been very much. I mean, I love ayahuasca. I dedicated my life to ayahuasca in many ways.

But lately I’ve come to feel that people really need to emphasize community and symbiosis. I talk a lot about symbiosis and connecting with the teacher plants in their own ecosystems, their own countries. And you may be surprised if you look into some of these traditions, there may be.

There may be records, there may be evidence of use of psychedelic plants and mushrooms, particularly in Latvia, that the practice existed, but the information has been suppressed, the information has been lost. Do you think that’s possible? You mentioned the Sami people, and of course they’re associated with Amanita muscaria. Is that a practice in Latvia that people use abenida for shamanic purposes or recreational purposes? Is there anything like that going on?

[00:17:57] Una Meistere: We do not have recordings from the past times. But looking what is happening in the last years, yes, people started to use it, and especially before, because Amrita muskari has those calming properties, and people are using it for relaxation, for better sleep and also anti inflammation.

But it’s still quite stigmatized. Our forests are full of those beautiful mushrooms. And it’s interesting Story when this craziness started, people from Lithuania came to very often came to our country to pick up those beautiful red mushrooms and bring back to Lithuania. But at the moment, since the last year they are made illegal in Lithuania, but they are still legal in Latvia, because in autumn time you can find them in the forest.

But there are always warnings when mushroom season starts, please do not pick up those mushrooms. But I don’t know, we do not really do not have recordings about ancient use here in Baltics for shamanic purposes.

Maybe there was some stories, but it’s more connected with Sami people than the Baltic or Livonian people. At the moment I’m the Livonian coast.

[00:19:36] Dennis McKenna: Interesting. Well, you mentioned that there are eight species of psilocybin mushrooms reported from Latvia. Is that information that came from.

Are you aware of Paul Stamets new book, Psilocybin Mushrooms in their Natural Habitat?

[00:19:57] Una Meistere: Actually, this information came out during the first conference which I organized with your help and with the help of Ethan Edelman you introduced me to. And at that conference we invited to talk also Paul Stamets.

And one of the speakers was rector of the University of Latvia at that time, Indritis Mujniks. And he gave a speech about mushrooms which are growing in Latvia.

And he told about those eight varieties of psilocybin mushrooms. But actually I think it’s more in the books, because after the conversation he said to me that he never found. And mycologists he know in Latvia never found all eight of them. But theoretically they are growing.

But yes, there are places like like old meadows with cattle farming and all those things where people are still finding classical liberty cups.

It’s like also like an underground ritual, especially for artists to go and to pick up some. And it’s a process itself.

And there are such places. There are like. Like secret places, because it’s still illegal. But psilocybin mushrooms are growing here. And at the moment we are thinking that maybe if we can cultivate them artificially, maybe we can have something which is ours in the future.

[00:21:43] Dennis McKenna: Yes, well, that’s interesting. I mean, it seems that the liberty caps are another species that was probably used throughout Europe and has an ancient history of use. But the information is lost.

But there is evidence from iconography and that sort of thing that liberty caps were known and used in Central Europe and Ireland and places like this.

And you mentioned cultivation. It seems that these days there are enthusiasts working on cultivation, basically as a hobby, trying to learn how to grow these many different species.

You know, the most widely cultivated mushroom is Psilocybe cubensis.

But there are other varieties, including liberty caps and some of the smaller varieties, which can be easily cultivated and in small spaces. You don’t need large warehouses or anything to cultivate some of these things. One species that’s quite interesting in this respect is Paniolis cyanescens, not Psilocybe cyanescence. That’s also a psychedelic mushroom. But Paniolus cyanescence looks very similar to the liberty caps. It’s even smaller, but it’s extremely potent.

So you can grow a small batch in a cake pan or something like that.

And it’s about when the dried mushrooms, when they’re dried down, about half a gram is more than a full dose.

So that’s something that anybody can do in their home. You know, you don’t really need a laboratory to do it. You can just. If you have a spare closet in a kitchen, you can do these things.

And I’ll send you the link.

There’s a website of basically hobbyists that cultivate many different varieties of psilocybin mushrooms now. So it’s very interesting to me that that knowledge is diffusing. People are finding out what’s in their own environment.

And as you mentioned, you have. It’s not just psilocybe mushrooms. You have other psychedelic plants in Latvia or in the Baltics that do have traditions that you’re beginning to investigate, is that correct?

[00:24:29] Una Meistere: Actually, it mostly connected with mushrooms with Ameritium gustaria and psilocybin mushrooms. We have ergot, but we never used it for psychedelic purposes.

But as far as I know, we have different kind of artemisias, but not such potent ones to use for such purposes. But we have something which is not a plant and not a mushroom. But we can speak about it as kind of Latvian alternative of ayahuasca. And it’s Latvian sauna.

I don’t know if you heard about Baltic sauna traditions, but it’s really, really ancient practice which is different from Finnish sauna. And it not includes only hot and cold contrast, but it includes also use of medical. Different medical plants for different purposes.

But it’s a ritual which could last for five or even eight hours. And since the ancient time, it was very connected to the circle of our life because mothers were delivering babies in sauna, and before and when people were dying, they were washed in sauna. And it really was part of our life. And this still is.

And it’s interesting that sauna ritual has succeeded all the times until nowadays. Also witch hunt and Christianizing time and also Soviet Union. It’s tradition, which is still alive.

And when you are going through this ritual, it’s very cleansing. But it could be also a bit consciousness expanding, but in a mild way, because the idea is to lead to deep relaxation, to get in contact with your soul and with your subconsciousness.

But in a way, we can call it like alternative or Latviana iuhaska, because if sauna is really powerful and you are jumping in this totally cold water after those hours, it could, for the moment, give you this very special state.

[00:27:03] Dennis McKenna: Right.

So this is an analog of ayahuasca, the plant or the preparation.

[00:27:12] Una Meistere: It’s not an analog because it’s not a plant. It’s ritual connected with very, very hot sauna and cold water and just physical things. But also it’s connected different medicinal plants. And we have really old history about the use of medicinal plants here in Latvia.

[00:27:40] Dennis McKenna: Well, that’s very interesting. Yeah. I mean, it seems that, you know, these plants, these practices are really everywhere in the world. You just have to know where to find them and the people that are knowledge about them. But as far as, you know, in Latvia, there is no shamanic or historical tradition of using any kind of psychedelic plant, or if there is, the knowledge has been suppressed or lost. Is that the situation?

[00:28:13] Una Meistere: Yeah, this is the situation. And also if we talk about medical plants, this old knowledge, it goes really, really back to Iron Age.

But what is left? It’s only oral knowledge. There is nothing written since that time, and it was passed from generation to generation.

And in the middle of it, something could get wrong as well. But at the moment, yes, we are trying to collect all this knowledge, and I hope that people will more and more return to their roots also through those practices which they got from other countries.

[00:28:59] Dennis McKenna: Right, right.

Well, I think this is the way it’s going. I think the psychedelic revolution. There’s lots of talk about the psychedelic revolution and the bringing of psychedelics into therapy and integrating it into mainstream medicine and all of that.

And depending on how that’s approached, it can be a good thing. But I’ve come to feel that, like community and community adoption, you know, community should. Community should be the nexus of this knowledge, and people should focus on what they can do locally and share this knowledge. That’s the true nature, in some ways, of symbiosis. So the acquisition of the basically very simple techniques to cultivate psilocybin mushrooms, in some sense is a blow for the psychedelic revolution. It’s like it’s a tool that we have because it can’t really be suppressed.

I mean, it’s something people could do.

They go get the mushrooms, they could cultivate it in their homes. It’s a very quiet revolution.

And the quiet revolutions are the ones that work because they can’t be stopped.

So what you’re doing in Latvia, I think is very, very interesting.

But on the other hand, are you working to try to bring psychedelics into therapies in Latvia that are recognized, that are not stigmatized, that are actually accepted by medicine?

Is that going on?

[00:30:45] Una Meistere: Yeah, that is exactly what we trying to do with the conferences we are organizing. And I was really, really happy that the last conference which happened this year in March, we succeed to organize it together with the University of Latvia, because it was really, really huge step to bring it forward.

And as for the first time we invited international speakers as well, like Wim van der Brink and Ethan Neidelman spoke as well. And Professor David Nutt spoke for the second time.

And it was really, really important to bring this discussion into academic context.

And there is all three Baltic countries are trying to do something in this field. And there is a bit difference because in Latvia, as I told I started it and I’m a journalist, I’m not medical doctor by background, but I came from a doctor’s family.

And I thought that maybe it’s. It’s my advantage that I will start to initiate this discussion not from inside, from medical side, but from outside. Maybe it will be easier a bit.

And I think it was the point which helped in this process of destigmatization.

Because our most biggest problem is that in Latvia many medical doctors, especially psychiatrists, are really against use of psychedelics.

And it is connected with the issues I mentioned, but also with a strong lobby of pharmaceutical industry which is there.

And this way collaboration with university was very important and I hope it’s going to continue.

In the meantime, in Lithuania and in Estonia situation is a bit different.

There those initiatives started from medical people, from psychiatrists.

And for example, in Lithuania now there is really strong focus on ketamine because they think that ketamine has a power which is not discovered yet in terms of mental health.

And also Lithuanian psychiatrist had a training in Poland with maps.

In the meantime, Estonians had a special association mostly created by medical doctors. And they are trying at the moment to negotiate with with psychiatric association and with medical agency to move towards compassionate use of MDMA and psilocybin as they train therapists through Mind foundation and Open Foundation.

And both countries are going to organize next autumn conferences devoted to therapeutic use of psychedelics.

So we are in different situations, but we are great colleagues and we communicate and we are trying to collaborate and move forward together.

But yes, our situation is different. But as we started from outside at the moment, I see also interest from psychotherapists, also psychiatrists to join this and maybe to start clinical trials or something in the future.

But it’s still.

We need time for it, right?

[00:34:57] Dennis McKenna: Well, it all comes down to education and there’s nothing like good clinical data to convince psychiatrists and medical doctors if they’re skeptical.

You know, most of them are scientists and most of them are open to data that actually demonstrates the applications, the efficacy of these things.

I was in Estonia. My one visit in my life to Estonia several years ago was with Luis Eduardo.

I think it was about 2017 or something like that.

And we were hosted by the president of the Estonian Transpersonal foundation, whom you may know, his name is Alar Temming. And as I understand, I mean, things may have changed, but that’s kind of the nexus of psychedelic interest in Estonia. And my impression was that Estonia is pretty open to this.

These medicines may not be overtly legal, but they’re not really.

There’s no effort to really suppress them. And apparently this organization is practicing pretty much in the open.

Have you had any association with them or any communication with Estonian colleagues?

[00:36:29] Una Meistere: Yeah, of course. I know them very well. And one of them, guy from Type foundation, he spoke at our latest conference and it was mostly about ketamine because it’s legal and they are using it also in a therapy.

But yes, I agree with you that maybe Estonia at the moment is a country which is more open than Latvia and also maybe Lithuania.

And I had an interesting conversation some months ago with Steve Jefferson.

He is from United States and I think he was at one moment he was invested at SpaceX, if I’m correct.

And yes, his Estonian, and he’s one of the first investors, I think, also in psychedelic startups and Psychedelic Renaissance.

[00:37:36] Dennis McKenna: I see. And SpaceX as well.

[00:37:40] Una Meistere: Yeah.

[00:37:41] Dennis McKenna: Strange bedfellows, eh?

Yes.

[00:37:45] Una Meistere: Yeah. All the small.

[00:37:46] Dennis McKenna: Right.

That’s very interesting. Yeah.

So it’s good that you know these people. So what is the. I mean, if one brings ayahuasca to Latvia with the intention of having ceremonies, that’s very dangerous. Right. I mean, they would be arrested like they have been in other European countries. It’s not something that you can do at least openly, you know, you’re aware of icers, you were at the Girona conference. Icers spends lots of money defending people that have gotten into trouble this way.

Is there that kind of pressure on ayahuasca in Latvia from a law enforcement perspective or people just don’t care?

[00:38:44] Una Meistere: Actually, in Latvia we are just 1.8 million.

And during so called psychedelic renaissance, I think a lot of Latvian had experience with ayahuasca, not only abroad, but also in our own country.

Yes, it’s still illegal, but it’s in a gray zone and I couldn’t openly talk about it. But those ceremonies are happening. And this is another important issue because there are different kind of experiences and different kind of people who are leading those ceremonies. And as they are already happening, the important point is how to deal with experiences people experience after that.

And this is also, I think, what ISERS is trying to do. They have a special program to help those people who have difficult situations, because we do not have psychiatrists and psychotherapists trained to work with people who had those experiences. There are quite a lot also not so good stories because anyway, these experiences are helpful, but there could be a moment when you do not know where to go and whom to tell. And this why it’s very important to make a legal framework for it.

Because otherwise, yes, there was like a way if everyone was trying to go to ayahuasca ceremonies and after that, no, no, no, it was not helpful. It made my situation more worse.

But the problem is that there was not proper integration afterwards.

[00:40:40] Dennis McKenna: Right, Right.

Yeah. There has to be created some kind of framework where this can be done.

Ayahuasca and any medicine, not just psychedelic medicines, they always have side effects. And in some sense the regulation does not have to be a bad thing. But it’s over regulation that they should be lightly regulated with emphasis on safety issues and also education. I think that people, they need access to the educational resources so that they know how to approach the use of these medicines in a proper way. Because, you know, they’re unlike any other medicine in that they have to be used in a special setting. So the dynamics of the set and setting as well as the medicine are the really important things. And this is another reason why community wisdom, I think, is important in indigenous groups.

It’s community based. And we can emulate that same model in Europe and in the States.

There are many retreat centers in the states that are offering different types of holistic therapies.

Not psychedelic therapies, but psychedelics could easily be integrated into such holistic health centers. And that seems to me to be the right way forward rather than the corporatization and the pharmaceuticalization. Of psychedelics, of course that’s going to be done anyway, because it’s capitalism. Capitalism will commodify anything that it can.

But it may not be the right approach for most people because for one thing, it reduces access to these treatments beyond the budget of many people.

And what is happening in the states, you probably pay attention to it, is that it seems to be state by state, they’re changing their regulations. It’s not happening on the federal level, at least not yet. But states such as Colorado and Oregon have legalized psilocybin for therapy, and other states are beginning to do that too. So this is all hopeful.

But it’s one of these things, Una, that you have to be mindful of always. I’ve always said these are technologies, these are tools, and any tool can be used or misused. And if the tool exists, you could be sure that it will be misused and it will be used properly.

It will cover the whole spectrum.

And so the choices we make in terms of how to employ these medicines is not inherent in the medicine. It’s inherent in our own hearts, our own moral compass and ethical sense is what must guide this. Because any tool could be used badly or beneficially.

And that’s just true of about any kind of technology. And I think in some ways these plants are a technology. They’re a tool that we’ve discovered and adapted to our own use.

[00:44:28] Una Meistere: Yes, I completely agree to you, Dennis.

However, I think that to have those tools, it’s kind of human rights, because if we have psilocybin mushrooms in our natural habitat, we should use them in benefit of our own people.

Because looking at statistics, our depression rate at the moment is 6.4.

It’s huge.

Also, we are in leading positions in Europe regarding alcohol abuse.

Many leading positions in Europe also by suicides.

And 80% of suicides are closely connected with depression.

So this is a moment when also our therapists and psychotherapists are starting to understand that it’s not panacea, but we need this tool in a box of our instruments.

And yes, I think it will be the way which could lead to legal framework just for medical use in the cases when nothing helps and when, of course, there is talk therapy and different kinds of therapies, but when you have a treatment resistant depression and you tried everything and nothing helps, I think it’s just human rights to include psilocybin or MDMA in a box of instruments.

[00:46:11] Dennis McKenna: Is ketamine therapy available in Latvia?

[00:46:14] Una Meistere: Yeah, ketamine therapy is available, but ketamine, I think is a little bit different because there could be also addiction issues and also misuse issues. And if you are talking about psilocybin, as you all know, there is no addiction.

[00:46:35] Dennis McKenna: Right? Right.

[00:46:36] Una Meistere: And you couldn’t overdose with psilocybin. You could go for a crazy, crazy trip, but you couldn’t overdose.

[00:46:45] Dennis McKenna: Right? Right.

Well, yes, ketamine has its. Its abuse potential, and it also has its uses as.

As a therapeutic medicine for depression and that sort of thing, obviously. And people are using it, the use is so widespread because it’s legal. I know many ketamine therapists who would love to be able to use psilocybin, but they’re prohibited from doing that at this point.

So they’re kind of making do with what’s available at this point and what’s legal because they have to be careful of this.

Persons not affiliated formally with medicine can go underground, but they’re still taking a risk.

But I think that you made a point a few minutes ago about how this is really a human right.

It should be a basic human right, access to these therapies.

And lately in my presentations and discussions, I’ve been talking about symbiotic rights.

I gave a presentation at the Telluride Mushroom Conference this last summer called the Symbiotic Revolution.

And I think we need to start at least. I advocate that we should discuss symbiosis as not just a human. Symbiosis, by definition, is a close, mutually beneficial alliance with an organism that is not human right. A fungus, a plant, another animal, and so on. We should assert symbiotic rights as a human right, yes, but actually an organismic right, a right that is valid for all living things to form symbiotic associations with other organisms, as you see. And that’s basically what the use of these plants are. It’s a symbiotic relationship. And the same with any other useful alliance with plants. Use of them for food, for example. That’s symbiosis too.

That’s usually not controversial, although it can be.

Or if you look at something like coca, which is both a medicine and a food, and then the source of cocaine, which is this terrible, harmful drug.

But coca itself has been stigmatized greatly because of its association with coca.

You may have seen that we did a coca summit in Sacred Valley last year conference, which you may have seen on our website. And this whole controversy is now coming to the attention of the International Commission on Narcotic Drugs and so on.

So it’s becoming an issue for discussion. Disappointingly, in their latest review which was just issued.

They decided not to decouple coca leaf from cocaine. They decided to keep it in the same restrictive schedule one that cocaine is, which makes no sense at all. You know, it just demonstrates a profound misunderstanding of the issues. Because to keep coca leaf illegal impacts the families that grow coca for their own livelihoods.

It impacts the environmental damage that comes from the processing and extraction of cocaine in these jungle laboratories, which have tremendously adverse effects on the environment.

So like everything else, that drug issues are complicated on all levels. But we still have to keep trying to find better ways forward, because after all, these substances really are, in some sense, they are our co evolutionary partners.

We have been associated with these plants and fungi for thousands and thousands of years, long before there were any regulatory bodies like the FDA to tell us that we couldn’t do that.

So I think we have to assert that as a human right and a symbiotic right.

[00:51:32] Una Meistere: I think they are not only our teachers, but they are our relatives, in a way, our brothers and sisters, because we are all coming from one symbiotic relationship.

As you said, plants need us and we need plants.

[00:51:48] Dennis McKenna: We are separable, right? We cannot separate ourselves from nature. In fact, that is the chief, in my opinion, that’s the chief sickness of our society is that we become estranged from nature.

And that is why things are so completely screwed up.

Because somehow we’ve come to think that we own nature and that nature exists for us to dominate.

So that’s the model and that’s the capitalist model. What we have to understand is we have to be partners with nature, you know, and that’s more the symbiotic model. So I think that introducing these concepts into the dialogue is a worthwhile thing to do to help people get a different perspective.

[00:52:41] Una Meistere: I think it’s starting to change, especially in our country. For example, a few years ago, the mushroom gathering was included in our cultural canon. It’s part of our historical heritage. And now we are thinking that maybe our relationships with medical plants, which are really ancient, we should include also in our historical cultural heritage.

And from my point of view, it will be a huge step forward because that means that it’s brought on another level and people to start to look at those traditions from different perspective and could see how to incorporate them in their daily lives.

Because all of us have those memories about use of medical plants. We know which tea to drink when we have a fever season. It’s all the ancient knowledge with which is in us. We just need to awaken it.

[00:53:50] Dennis McKenna: Yes, exactly. It’s Long been there.

In some points it’s been suppressed. But we’re rediscovering it.

And we have to assert that that’s part of what this symbiotic revolution is about.

It’s about rediscovering this ancient knowledge which has never gone away, but is in danger of being overlooked and perhaps forgotten. The plants, the organisms, those things will continue, but the relationship with human communities and human societies is in danger. And I think we have to strengthen that because this is the bridge that binds us to nature. This is the way that we reassert our partnership effectively. Our partnership relationship with nature is through these medicines. So the work you’re doing is very important.

You’re living in a very politically difficult area of the world and you’re more aware of the pitfalls than I am. But I think this applies the world over. But in the Baltics and in Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia being so close to the Russian Empire and the sort of rise of authoritarianism in Europe, there’s a risk for this. But I mean, again, these are tools. They are tools for fighting back against this and for fostering receptivity and partnership with nature.

As you know from your own experiences with ayahuasca and other plant medicines, nothing wakes up or wakes us up to the importance of nature and these relationships than a profound psychedelic experience.

[00:55:53] Una Meistere: You are absolutely right, and I want to keep positive. And actually, I have a note which I want to read, because this is a note you sent me when I working on a first conference, and nothing went so smoothly as I imagined. And then you wrote me, that’s the spirit, Luna. I always remind myself that even when things seem to be very bad, that nothing is going right. The universe is unfolding in exactly the way it’s supposed to.

So it will happen that way. No worries.

Yes, those are your words and I still keeping them. And yes, I’m really grateful for all you did also for our country, because our interview that time, it was 2020, it was really turning point, and it was one of the synchronicities that made a change and you never know when it will happen again.

[00:57:00] Dennis McKenna: Well, that’s a good note to end on.

You took the words right out of my mouth. I mean, I’ve said that so many times.

The universe is unfolding in exactly the way it’s supposed to, as it always has, as it always will.

And we may not understand it, but we have to have faith that that’s true, because.

And again, whether we have faith or not, this is what’s going on.

So we’re right at the top of the hour. If there’s anything we haven’t said that we must say, we can say it now, but otherwise I’ll wind this up and I’ll let you know when the podcast will post. I very much appreciate taking your time to talk to us today.

[00:57:48] Una Meistere: Thank you, Dennis. I feel huge gratitude towards you because you never know what is going to happen in our life, but there are moments which are really precious and yes, and Ayahuasca is a mystery, but it’s also great teacher and great connector. If I didn’t have this experience, maybe at the moment I’m believing in a different world, but it’s change it completely. And now I am on totally different path and we are talking at that moment and it’s one of the precious moments of my life. Thank you, Jens.

[00:58:34] Dennis McKenna: Well, thank you. Yeah, you and many people can thank Ayahuasca. I have such gratitude for it every day. It certainly changed my life and many people. So these catalysts do exist and they bring about change, but they work on their own timescale, not on the human timescale. But over time they will help our species.

We just have to make an effort to make sure we don’t blow up the planet before all that happens, before that magic could happen.

So thank you very much for joining us.

Have a wonderful holiday and we’ll be in touch. And I will see you in Girona, probably.

[00:59:22] Una Meistere: Thank you. And let’s talk about making this detour to Latvia.

[00:59:27] Dennis McKenna: Let’s see if we can do a side trip.

Yes. I won’t say no. There’s a couple of other folks that want me to go other places. But it seems to me that I may have to extend my stay in Europe and go two or three places that I hadn’t planned on, which would be great, actually.

I miss it. So thank you so much.

[00:59:51] Una Meistere: Thank you so much. And let’s keep in touch and have a great day.

[00:59:55] Dennis McKenna: You too. All the best to you.

Join our mission to harmonize with the natural world. Support the Mckenna Academy by donating today.

Thank you for listening to Brainforest Café with Dennis McKenna. Find us online at McKenna.Academy.